Talk:Elf
Dalish Should we make a seperate page for the Dalish? I think there's enough info that we could...Jackimole 19:01, February 19, 2010 (UTC) Does anyone know what is meant by, 'Dalish elves are haunted by a werewolf curse that was created by the Dalish.'? Because the werewolf page says that if one is a werewolf you only have that one form, and that the transformation only occures after being bitten by another werewolf. DrizztxGuen 17:37, 16 July 2009 (UTC) Hmmm I hadn't seen this sentence before. It does indeed sound incorrect. I assume the intent was to imply, that there are Dalish clans who fight with werewolves, though perhaps the Dalish, not the werewolves, are the cause of the fighting. So I shall change it accordingly :) Loleil 22:47, 16 July 2009 (UTC) I have seen also the reference about that curse. I don't remember where, maybe in the Stolen Throne book? Elvhen Veluthil 19:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC) :I couldn't find any reference to a Dalish/werewolf curse, though I haven't read the book, so if it's in there feel free to add it back in :). Loleil 00:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC) slavery does anyone know for sure how long ago the elves were freed from human enslavement? I know in the video they have at the Dragon Age Origins website said that they had been free for many generations but they aren't very specific. : The elves rebelled against the Tevinter Imperium in the days of Andraste, which happened roughly 1000 years ago. But slavery still exists, to a certain extent, in the present-day Tevinter Imperium. : -- [[User_talk:XavierGrimwand|'Xavier Grimwand']] on Saturday, October 3, 2009 @ 7:30 pm (ET) ::Indeed - this was also when the new homeland of the Dales was founded. --ManicMan 14:56, November 10, 2009 (UTC) Sarethia lives where? The first quote under "Alienages" is attributed to Sarethia of the Gwaren alienage, but the character creator datafiles contain an almost identical quote attributed to "Sarethia, hahren of the Highever alienage." Which is it? --Jabor 23:08, October 21, 2009 (UTC) :Well I just had a look for sources, and I found one saying Gwaren and another saying Lothering! So I'm guessing we won't know for sure until the game is released. I might remove her location until we know for sure. Loleil 01:35, October 22, 2009 (UTC) Leave it until the games comes out so we can know then, please. The info on this codex can be outdated.--Selty 07:22, October 22, 2009 (UTC) :We have three different sources with three different locations. To me, that seemed like there was enough uncertainty that we should hold off on providing a definite location until the game provides the answer and I suspect people will hardly notice the missing word . Loleil 07:59, October 22, 2009 (UTC) Chantry and the destruction of the Dales The Chantry destroyed the Dales because they didn't want to worship the maker and sing the chant of light - which for the Chantry, was like saying their 'holy mission' could never be completed whilst the Dales still stood. I don't see why this article is featured when the first section is lacking in details that are clearly stated in the game codex. --ManicMan 14:56, November 10, 2009 (UTC) I agree. The reason for the Exalted March is hardly "unknown." They allied with the Andreste and her followers against the Tevinter Imperium, but the elves were attacked in the first Exalted March because they did not give up belief in their gods for belief in the Maker. That is, in fact, the purpose behind every Exalted March: to attack those that do not believe in the Maker and his prophet Andraste.---- 09:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :Oh, I would edit it myself, but the page is locked for everyone, including registered folk --ManicMan 10:47, November 16, 2009 (UTC) ::Ok, I've editted the page now. Can someone review my changes and see what you think? --ManicMan 21:22, November 23, 2009 (UTC) ::: That's also what the elven protagonist can express at Ostagar (even if the elven protagonist isn't from the Dalish clan) - that the Chantry invaded the Dales because the elves refused to capitulate to the Chantry. Even the Dalish Warden's codex on the Dales makes reference to templars invading the Dales as a consequence of the elves kicking out the Chantry missionaries and refusing to convert. Lobsel Vith (talk) 19:23, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Chantry attack The page appears to be locked for unregistered editors, so I'll just add here that the Chantry didn't attack the Dalish for "unknown reasons" as the article states, but because of the alleged attack on the village of Red Crossing. The game suggests that this is likely an excuse, but is still the official reason for the exalted march. 07:26, November 16, 2009 (UTC) :Ok, I've editted the page now. Can someone review my changes and see what you think? --ManicMan 21:22, November 23, 2009 (UTC) :: According to the humans, they claim the attack on Red Crossing started the war, but the Dalish claim the war started as a consequence of templars invading the Dales (in their own codex) and the elven Warden can condemn the Chantry at Ostagar for invading the Dales because the elves didn't convert to the Chantry. There are two sides to the story. Lobsel Vith (talk) 19:27, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Elven accent Shouldn't we add a Trivia section? Among the things listed there could be their accent, I heard it as an American, I'm not sure though. -- 16:50, December 29, 2009 (UTC) I believe they are listed as having a lack of an accent, most likley caused by the loss of there culture and history.--Gdubs (talk) 05:16, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Sexuality Someone removed my post: "It could also be noted that most if not all elves have high sexuality. So much so, that it seems many are bisexual. This can be seen at times in both Dalish and City Elf starter zones as well as Zevran being a romance option for both the male and female Warden." From the trivia section and didn't put it anywhere else on the page. They also didn't say why it was removed. This is fact, I've played through those areas and have spoken to elves to get a good idea of what I was posting. If someone may want to revise my statement thats fine. I don't mind a post being deleted. What I don't like is someone deleting a factual post and not leaving a reason. Griffmstr835 (talk) 05:08, September 18, 2010 (UTC) Likely because there is not enough evidence to claim that Elves are more sexual than other races, as I have never notice anything like that. I dont believe Zevran being Promiscuous has anything to do with the sexual nature of other elves.--Gdubs (talk) 05:14, September 18, 2010 (UTC) I'm with Gdubs on this. You can't consider an orphan raised in a brothel and sold like a piece of meat to be a typical elf. Zevran has the single most horrific back-story of all the companions in Origins. I don't think a human who managed to survive what he did would be any different. As far as the rest, the elves did not strike me as being any more bisexual than humans. I really have no clue what basis that conclusion is founded upon, and I played through all of those same areas too. -Vim- (talk) 06:25, September 18, 2010 (UTC) welsh elves? yo i was just wondering..why are the elves gonna have welsh and irish accents in dragon age 2? i mean...im welsh..and we dont sound like you would imagine and elf to sound =/ sorry forgot to log in and sign..still want an answet thanks :) Voruse (talk) 21:52, February 15, 2011 (UTC) Well to non-welsh, it might be perfect for the elves. It's certainly unique among the other races and nations of Thedas. Not to mention that the Elvish language as created by Tolkin is based on Welsh. So, in a game clearly heavily influenced by Tolkin's works it makes sense that the accent should be welsh.--DetailedSubset (talk) 22:47, February 15, 2011 (UTC) i suppose..i just remebered the elves in the mmorpg "runescape" have welsh names and so does their god..i think welsh word make for good elfish names...but..they should be a bit careful with what welsh accent they use becuause an elf with a welsh accent like say.. Rhod gilbert would be just insane..due to him having a low gravely voice but if they use more like rob brydon's welsh accent i think it may acctually go well..just like any accent it varies on what part of the country you come from..but its a small country so not that much variation hah..Voruse (talk) 23:49, February 15, 2011 (UTC) I don't know if anyone has noticed but there are about two Dalish with Welsh accents, and the rest are Irish. Oh and by the way Voruse there is a lot of varieties of the Welsh accent being Welsh myslelf, oh and can you refrain from taking the piss out of my country? sorry what? are you dense? i clearly stated i myself am welsh! im not taking the piss im stating the welsh accent does not work well for elves!Voruse (talk) 03:07, May 24, 2011 (UTC) The Irish accents were used for the Elves because of their "Traveler" status. In Britain most Travelers you'll encounter have Irish accents interspersed with their own strange language. Welsh (rarely) used because of the quasi Celtic theme of the elves, ie their pagan pantheon and ties to nature. TheXand (talk) 23:20, September 27, 2013 (UTC) dalish and city elves i noticed in da:o the city elves think of the dales as brutes, but in da2, the city elves bow to marethari when she enters the alienage. though this was in kirkwall, as apposed to ferelden. im guessing the rumors about the dales differ from location. just a thought. Mikazuki (talk) 16:27, August 20, 2011 (UTC) Humans VS Half Elves It says that if eves mate with humans, they only have human children. However, in DA2, Feneral was half elf, notable with features such as slightly pointed ears. It is specifically said that he's half elf. Is this inaccurate information, or did Bioware just not think this through? --The offspring of humans and elves are always human. References (David Gaider on BSN): http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/575146/2#576558, http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/575146/2#578489, http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/9/index/575146/3#856189 --Feynriel is a skinny human, but he does not have any truly elven characteristics. There is nothing in his appearance that contradicts what David Gaider established originally. --RaeCaoileann (talk) 00:02, November 6, 2011 (UTC) He has slightly pointed ears, and his page on the site says he's half-human/half-elf. (talk) 00:19, November 6, 2011 (UTC) * Yes, and I have edited that out (again) as I seen no evidence or proof to the existence of actual half-elves. I am glad I have Gaider's actual posts on the matter, because I have been looking for them. I do not recall anyone in game referring to Feynriel as a half-elf (in a "No, he's not quite human, or elf" way). He's just a human, albeit one you could probably guess had some elven ancestry. Vegnas (talk) 19:16, November 11, 2011 (UTC) : Maybe it's just me, but I don't always take Gaider's word for everything. He's already proven on a few occasions to me that it doesn't seem he is always very consistent. On the subject of half elves, part of DA's purpose is to build your own story; so in my version humans can have elven children :P EzzyD (talk) 16:33, March 24, 2012 (UTC) If Feynriel is a human, someone in BW should take anatomy book and look what homo sapiens skull looks like. Because dem nose bridge looks suspiciously flat o.O. I believe the reason why Gaider made up so much of rather bad failure in basic genetics (imo) is because of gameplay reasons. The thread refernced on BW site is two years old, way before DA2 where they decided to revamp all races to look more alien. Sure an elf from DA:O that look more human can have a human born, you just need to add height and make some flat years. But with this new design? Not really...Feynriel doesn't really look human, his facial features, ears, nose bridge and irises does not correspond with other humans.(And I am aware in the game he is not referred to as elf blooded but come on, they just don't really want to admit they thought up of revamping species much later <.<). I personally think the could be open to discussion at least. Another matter is that BW was just too lazy to make a model for entirely different race. I would like to see what BW has to say about elf-blooded AFTER making elves into alien looking folk. ;) Also what Ezzie said, Gaider has a history of not being consistent and retconning.<.<( (talk) 07:31, April 13, 2012 (UTC)) Trivia Section Much of this section seems to be more "speculation" than "trivia." Would anyone be opposed to moving the more speculative bits into their own section? Also, some points are a little redundant or overlap. Could be tidied up a little. I would remove the statement, "Even the elven word for their own people means, "the people" just like the counterparts of for example Native Americans and Ainu." The premise here is inaccurate. There are myriad examples of cultural group names that essentially mean "our people" or "people of something" or "people from somewhere," etc. Moreover, present-day common names for many Native American peoples come words/terminology from languages other than their own. Commenting on other parallels is interesting, but elves in DA seem to draw overtly from Celtic cultural influences more than anything, so we shouldn't risk going overboard drawing ties elsewhere. There are plenty of other cultures out there with similarly broad commonalities. --CaptainFlan (talk) 06:09, November 30, 2011 (UTC) :A late reply, but we don't have any sort of speculation section since we do not allow them. Generally, it's avoided, but it sometimes make their way into the trivia section. Although it is ok to make some comparisons to real-life events, it should be concise. If there are too much conflicts about the trivia item, I think the best course of action is to simply remove the items. --'D.' (talk ·''' ) 21:08, January 26, 2012 (UTC) I'm confused about this last part: ''The elves, as with other races, in Dragon Age II have been redesigned to create more space between the individual races. The Dalish now feature Welsh and Irish accents (this is not the case with most city elves) and have been given tall, willowy frames and thin faces with large eyes and small features, as opposed to being the "short, pointy-eared humans" in Dragon Age Origins. '''This clashes with lore established in Dragon Age Origins, where it is implied that they are closer related to humans than Dwarves are.'' Where in the DAO lore is it implied that elves are closer related to humans than dwarves? I'd like to read that, if someone could send me a link. --SylvanLore (talk) 17:58, January 15, 2013 (UTC) Origins Is it just me who sees the two varients of elves as comparisons of real life races/ethnicities. The city elves remind me of the Jews, with their close knit community, high value of marriage and a philosophy existing around keeping the fait alive. The Dalish seem to be the Celtic clans that survived in Britain after the Norman/Roman/Saxon/Viking invasions.-- (talk) 17:14, December 13, 2011 (UTC) Centered image I've removed it since it was off-wiki and, this is a personal comment, it had this weird black border which I think we should avoid when posting pictures on the wiki, unless it is for the wiki's layout which are personalized. The "image in the center" was used for kossith page (it still is, but it was more or less agreed upon to use that kind of layout for race pages). --'D.' (talk ·''' ) 21:08, January 26, 2012 (UTC) History and Trivia Edited history to more accurately reflect the codex: the Imperium wasn't the first human civilization that the elves encountered. The Tevinter Imperium formed after the elves closed themselves off to the shemlen. Edited trivia, removing the bullet claiming that elves and humans have human with elves features. According to David Gaider, elf-human children appear fully human. And there was no source for the trivia bullet, so it is better for it to be removed unless the fact can be verified. Rathian Warrior (talk) 00:40, February 16, 2012 (UTC) Genetic Adaptability Removed the phrase "genetic adaptability" as the reason the elves always have human children. According to David Gaider, the reason elves have human kids isn't genetic, but something else inherent to their being which he wasn't ready to reveal yet. Also there was no source for the information. Rathian Warrior (talk) 14:58, April 27, 2012 (UTC) : I suppose that means he's having trouble coming up with a reason? Personally, I was disappointed that this *trait* was applied to elves. Half-elves and "half-dwarves" are a good component of other fantasy. I realize this is Gaider's choice and I have no way to change it, but I say that half of the DA story is written by the player and it should ultimately be their choice whether some things are possible. EzzyD (talk) 15:02, April 27, 2012 (UTC) ::The thread I saw was essentially an argument about human-elf genetics and whether or not human-elf children were really human or just humans with elven features. Gaider then stepped in and declared that all children of elf-human unions were entirely human, but it wasn't for genetic reasons, but something about the elves themselves that caused this to happen. Rathian Warrior (talk) 21:38, April 27, 2012 (UTC) list of notable elves Zevran or Fenris are not mentioned in the list of notable elves section of the page Dalish in Rivain In DA2, we hear Merrill and Isabela discussing Rivain. In it, we hear: Merrill: What was Llomerryn like? I've never heard of a Dalish who's been there. Isabela: I don't imagine your people travel between islands much. Merrill: Not really, no. Isabela: I wouldn't start waterproofing your wagons, then. I don't think Llomerryn is ready for the Dalish. Merrill: What do you mean? Would we upset the people there? Isabela: It's not really the kind of place where one turns down a tumble. Even refuse a fortune teller, and they'd run your lot out of town. But it says on this page that "The Dalish of Ferelden are on a more-or-less neutral basis with its human citizens while Dalish in Rivain have a semi-permanent settlement in the city of Llomerryn, though Rivian is the exception to the rule as the Dalish are feared as a race of savage elves in most parts of Thedas." So are the Dalish in Llomeryn or not? Isabela's quote implies that the Dalish aren't there yet, but the passage states that they're already there. 02:00, May 24, 2012 (UTC) :"Some of the information listed on the unofficial Dragon Age wiki comes from David Gaider, who posted information at the old Bioware messageboard (I'm not certain why the Rivain page doesn't cite the link since his post is still avaliable for view)." (BSN) :Unfortunately, the old forums are no longer accessible since the shut down last year. The article needs some sourcing though. 02:25, May 24, 2012 (UTC) :Here's the post regarding Dalish in Llomerryn (archive): ::"The Dalish have the Gathering every 10 years, where all the clans are supposed to gather and the Keepers of each clan share their knowledge with each other. This is also where Dalish-wide issues are dealt with, and ideally the Gathering is supposed to keep the Dalish roughly in step with each other. In practice, though, you are correct. Each clan tends to go the way that its Keeper dictates. Some clans are very militant, almost xenophobic. Some are little more than bandits in whatever wilderness they've staked out (this is often the case in Tevinter, for instance). A few are quite benevolent and live in peace with nearby humans -- the Rivaini city of Llomerryn is known to have a semi-permanent Dalish encampment on its outskirts, and trade with the elves for their crafts is encouraged." (David Gaider on May 20, 2009) : 23:55, May 25, 2012 (UTC) :: That post's from 2009, and Isabela says the stuff in 2011 and beyond (is Isabela just ignorant of the place she has lived in - which is like saying that a Londoner had no idea East End is populated by Asians - or is Gaider just making stuff up?). Either Isabela really didn't want Merrill to come to Rivain, or the Keeper is a super powerful mage who can hide an entire settlement from the non-Dalish. Either way, another lore conflict. Oh well. 00:25, May 26, 2012 (UTC) :::It's possible it wasn't communicated to the other writers since Isabela and Merrill are not written by Gaider. Either that, or it just got retconned (hard to say since it's a piece of information on a forum post as opposed to the game itself—I suppose the latter trumps the former canonically), or Isabela is just ignorant. 00:36, May 26, 2012 (UTC) ::::I am moving it to the trivia section, considering it is an old post, and contradicts with what I suppose is the most updated version regarding Dalish and Rivain. It may have been "legacy" information that is no longer used, as the post was pre-release. 20:14, May 27, 2012 (UTC) Trivia comparisons I've removed a few of them since you can make comparisons to pretty much anything with the elves (in addition to the Witcher's), and it depends on the reader. I don't think they contribute much to the article, and are not really relevant in my opinion. 19:28, June 5, 2012 (UTC) Facial Hair So, I remember Fenris stating somewhere in DA2 that elves can't grow beards. Maybe this could be put in the Trivia section or something? I'd say it's definitely something interesting worth noting at least. I was a little surprised to not see it in here anywhere already. WhiteClaudia (talk) 02:42, January 21, 2013 (UTC) :Yes, I think that would be a valid trivia. 10:01, January 21, 2013 (UTC) ::That's surprising, since Sarel looks like he could use a shave. I guess it's part of the elven revamp. Lobsel Vith (talk) 19:30, February 6, 2013 (UTC) Split candidate Just like any other race group, especially with the size and lore of the dalish elves, should warrant a separate article. Subsequently I am putting a split candidate on this page. Perhaps the same should happen for city elves as well, however I'd like to hear some thoughts about it first since this will strip the page from its content. 08:05, September 21, 2013 (UTC) :That sounds like a good idea, since it seems Inquisition might be providing a chance to play as a Dalish or City Elf protagonist (thereby giving us a greater glimpse into and understanding of their culture), and the societies of the Dalish and their Alienage counterparts have become fairly distinct since their split after the fall of the Dales. Lobsel Vith (talk) 20:03, September 21, 2013 (UTC) I support dalish elves split. We already have a rather extensive alienage article, so city elves can be redirected there. 20:48, September 21, 2013 (UTC) Agreed. This seems to be the pattern for most races, so it makes sense to split it out. Kelcat (talk) 19:31, November 27, 2013 (UTC) Although I'm sure there's more work that needs to be done, the initial split has been made. 05:20, December 16, 2013 (UTC) Lifespan How long do they *actually* live? It's said that they used to be immortal before, and that this is no longer the case but is there anywhere in the lore that claims they live as long as humans? It could be possible that while dramatically reduced from "immortality" they could still live longer than humans. TheXand (talk) 23:23, September 27, 2013 (UTC) :No, Mary Kirkby (or whatever) from BioWare confirmed that all races live about the same lenght of natural life, but the Qunari have medicine and sanitation and whatnot and thus live longer than others. Henio0 (talk) 09:14, September 28, 2013 (UTC) ::In mediviel times avarage lifespan was about 35 years due to often wars, diseases, ahigienical life style, only the richest could make themselves immune for such things, when most of people were poor. Old people over 50 years old were lucky not usual. (talk) 10:18, September 28, 2013 (UTC) :::It's currently up for debate since Gaider explicitly said Dalish elves live longer the more generations they live away from humans, and dialogue from the Dalish in the first game suggested this was the case as well. Whether Kirby's post means that this has been rectonned for the Dalish in Dragon Age has yet to be addressed. Lobsel Vith (talk) 17:44, September 28, 2013 (UTC) :::That's a misconception. Infant deaths are factored in thus lowering the average. http://www.livescience.com/10569-human-lifespans-constant-2-000-years.html :::the inclusion of infant mortality rates in calculating life expectancy creates the mistaken impression that earlier generations died at a young age Vegnas (talk) 23:04, September 15, 2015 (UTC) I do remember there being some hints as to elves living longer than humans in the first game when I played as a Dalish elf, and I'm more inclined to take Gaider's word given he's played more of a role in the lore. It'd be pretty boring if all the races lived the same length of time tbh, much more leeway for darker explorations of standard Tolkien races if there were differing lifespans to add in a little more prejudice. TheXand (talk) 22:22, September 29, 2013 (UTC) I think that if the Dalish do live longer, it's not because they aren't with humans. It's just that they are always on the move, they eat healthy, and they hunt, whereas humans in the cities just sit there and eat filth. I also think the elves of old all used blood magic to gain long lives, like Zathrian did. Henio0 (talk) 02:10, September 30, 2013 (UTC) :Lady of the Forrest said he lied his people about rediscovering immortality. Besides most Dalish condemn blood magic, because magisters used it to enslave them. By this I understood that Zathrian using blood magic was unusual, keeper's hypocrisy. (talk) 06:18, September 30, 2013 (UTC)StubbornMageSlayer I don't buy into the reason that Dalish live longer is because they're nomadic. If anything that would shorten their lives because they aren't eating as well, have less access to medicine and are more exposed to the elements and thus more subect to illness. Zathrian and a few of the other Dalish in Origins claim that Dalish live noticeable longer than city elves because of less contact with humans, and even claim that elves other than Zathrian have either reobtained immortality or come close to it. Admittedly Zathrian himself used blood magic but that doesn't necessarily mean the others did. The lead writer of Dragon Age, David Gaider, seems to agree, although some lesser dev disagreed with him.TheXand (talk) 14:48, December 3, 2013 (UTC) Neutrality, biased viewpoints There are some issues with the recent edits by User:Openminds. More specifically: * "Elves joining the Qunari for better lives" It is extremely subjective to state as a fact in a wiki article that life under the Qun is better. * "Elves were once a race of beautiful, ethereal immortals" I attempted to remove here the word "beautiful" as it is a subjective and biased viewpoint for an encyclopaedic article. * "By the time the Tevinter Imperium had come to enslave them all centuries later" There are some neutrality issues here again. It completely disregards that Tevinter and Elvhenan held massive battles in which the elves as well unleashed their own horrors and after their defeat they were enslaved. Then the history section continues with the Dales giving the uninformed reader the impression that none of this has happened. * "Many elves are joining the Ben-Hassrath" I attempted here to describe the reasons why Qunari prefer to train converted elves as Ben-Hassrath over other positions in Qunari society and I didn't use my own viewpoints but Iron Bull's. This was also undone without any explanation. Here are both versions which you can use for easy reference and comparison. 09:12, October 12, 2018 (UTC) ---- I did try to restore some of your edits, and make some edits that suit your arguments, and here are some of my counter-arguments. * "-have joined the Qunari in hopes for better lives." Latest version I placed, less subjectivity. * "Elves were once a race of beautiful, ethereal immortals" This was directly drawn from the "Elvhenan" article, hence that Main Article Redirect directly above the text. * "Many elves are joining the Ben-Hassrath" That fact was never disputed and further elaboration is mostly unnecessary. The Qunari happen to be just as drawn to using other races as spies too and the elves(of the city) just happen to be more likely to convert to the Qun and be recruited. * "By the time the Tevinter Imperium had come to enslave them all centuries later" Things would be repetitive at this point, and the battles and history between Elvhenan and the Imperium were already described in "Recorded History and Legends". 15:28, October 12, 2018 (UTC) :* Qunari argument :* Elves being called of being once "beautiful". We need to change both articles then. The main question is if you find this expression as neutral or you agree that it becomes too subjective for a wiki article. :*Ben-Hassrath Why you think further elaboration of why the Qunari prefer elves for this role is "mostly unncessary"? I think readers would be interested to see the motives behind the Qunari decision, even more so since the Qun is such a unique concept. :*Tevinter Imperium Yes but it is very deceptive to claim that Tevinter "came to enslave" the elves. Clarifying that the elves were defeated in battles '''then enslaved, is far more accurate and it adds barely more text. : 16:05, October 16, 2018 (UTC) ---- A little late aren't you, sister? * Elves being called of being once "beautiful". Again: it was directly drawn from the "Elvhenan" article. The direct citation from the sentence it was derived from leads to Dragon Age: Origins: Prima Official Game Guide. Personally I did not read it. I'm not obligated to, and I don't have the game (which I might get one day) or the personal time. And much of the Elvhenan History category is like a culmination of excerpts, like a story book. If you want to change the entirety of that. I wish you good luck because it is absolutely laced with citations. *Ben-Hassrath Sometimes even dickheads like me need to temper on how much we elaborate. Qunari will take any race as Ben-Hassrath spies. It's sensible, no one will look at an elven or human maidservant twice in comparison to a tall silver-skinned and eyed Qunari warrior. If that Templar defector in the Tresspasser DLC and the Ben-Hassrath assassins in the cinematic with Iron Bull following the "Save the Chargers" decision in Demands of the Qun, were anything to go by. Elves just unfortunately have that certain lot in life where they must turn to what they might consider the lesser of a number of evils. Also, I think there are multiple iterations in the article of that Qunari and elf dynamic already. Three in total. One in the second introductory paragraph. The second in the History category. The third in Notes category. *Tevinter Imperium I put in "conquered and enslaved." Around two nights before you put more input into this discussion. I hope this suits you. 20:40, October 16, 2018 (UTC)